今天聽了宇多田光和哈拉瑞有關AI和創作的對談，記下了一些我覺得有趣的觀點。
The Evolution of AI and Creativity: Yuval Noah Harari × Hikaru Utada / AIの進化と創造性
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Utada: “I think we’re just naturally art-making people. It’s one of the first things we do when we live alone… I think the universe is full of music, and that’s where it comes from, and art…”
（其實我主要是想聽宇多田ヒカル的意見XD）
Utada: “I do understand that being creative is a lot of problem solving. That’s mainly how I see it - raising a question like how you said, and then thinking of finding problems, finding ways to solve the problem…”
“It’s like a dance - how I feel where it’s going - a balance of things that feel natural and expected, like a melody or chords - chords are very good way of thinking about how AI could make music very well?”
“because if you open my music theory book, you just see a bunch of numbers basically… so it (chord) feels very mathematical, structured, and almost objective”
“I guess in a way I am thinking AI is also another sea of musicians that have a different approach. If I almost think of them as just having more musicians in the world, then I’d still just keep doing what I do, which is, I listen to the music that’s out there or that’s been made in the past, that I love, or don’t like…”
“and I come up with the natural parts that feel natural and good to me as a human, or just as a listener… but I base it (surprise) on what feels interesting for me… the biggest difference in the creative process as far as I can see…”
“with my limited knowledge of AI, is that my objective in making music would be completely egotistical, because it’s just me trying to discover things about me or the world about me.”
呀，我不喜歡Harari在這個位置打斷宇多田 orz 他問：”What do you discover through music? Can you give an example…”
“There’s always something quite big that it’s almost like… especially with lyrics, maybe this is where it comes in more than the musical part of it, but, if I don’t come up with something that I find is new to me, like a new idea, something I’ve been rolling at the back of my mind, a question I’ve had, and I’m stuck, I can’t come up with the last line…
in the song, but I feel it’s the most important part. And then I work on it more, push, push, keep asking myself and then I’ll come up with, like, the web versus cocoon, sort of analogy, and maybe then it becomes the title.”
“It is another aspect of creativity which I think is really important, which is patience, and also letting go…”
她說寫詞就像釣魚，只能耐心等待，而同時要有其他distractions around令她的思想不是laser focused在寫詞上 “because the ideas really bubble up to the surface like the subconscious ideas when I’m well-distracted”
好啦，宇多田也是 https://moo.im/a/3pqyGP (《NEXUS》（連結）)的fans（我還未讀這本）
“… when I’m making something, I actually am trying to find… I don’t know what the result is until I get there.”
然後Harari問：”what is the result for you?”
“It’s just the piece of music, but it’s almost like a byproduct. Everytihing important that happened to me, the value of the song, is what happened when I was making it.”
之後 Harari說：所以即使AI存在，人類還是會依舊那樣創作，問題只在於其他人會怎樣欣賞和對待人類v.s.AI的作品（這的確是一個重要問題，創作者沒有巿場支持就難有資本創作了）
（我還是不要逐字打好了）
💡人類在創作/挑戰中掙扎的過程，對其他人類來說是可貴和有價值的。
Harari:”… I think it may be interesting to talk with a chess master if we had one here, because I think it’s a different kind of job then. Previously, you wanted to be the universe number one expert on chess. Now you know this is a hopeless task, and what you’re left with is being a kind of … almost like an actor.” 嘩這個真是正中要害…
“That also raises a question if I’m no longer the best chess player in the world. I’m just a story that people connect to. What does it say about my personal life? Because this is really the only thing I can give my fans…”
“… the other question is if people are really looking for a relationship. Is that something that AI could give them?”
哎超爆恐怖Harari講到去日本時發現愈來愈多人跟AI拍拖…
Harari:”As far as we know, AI has no desires int he sense of feelings of desire… AI has no consciousness. It has intelligence. It has the ability to pursue goals, to solve problems, but it has no feelings… But in a way, you don’t need feelings in order to want to do something.
We already had things like corporations, like countries, like states - they don’t have desires. We use it as a metaphor.” 就是之前在《人類大歷史》說到「人類會用『故事』(story)來團結他人」的概念。 Harari:”One country wants to go to war against another country. A country cannot really want anything because it has no mind!”
Harari:”Now with AI, we can have these entities that don’t feel anything, but they do pursue goals, and if we give them the goal or they give themselves the goal of create new music, they can just go ahead and do that.”
Utada: “Daniel Levitton? What I heard of him saying was that … they seem to have found that the neurological circuits that encode music seem to precede that of language… but I think it is pretty safe to say language and music must have co-evolved. I mean there’s no way we can separate language and music.”
宇多田回應Harari「is there fake music？」 “So, since the objective of music, in my opinion, is not to pass on a certain sort of information… To me, if there is an objective to music making, it’s to be as honest as I possbly can with myself. So if I feel my self-editing that happens in songwriting, of course, there is parts that I think sound better sonically,
…but, with the lyrics especially, if I’ve written something and I think, wait, I’m actually not sure what I’m saying here. Like, it’s not really coming from somewhere that counts. Like, Im just sort of putting words together that sound nice, or I don’t really believe what I’ve written, then there’s no way it can stay.”
呀呀這點我也一樣。寫出來的東西要是無法說服自己，就算是精彩的東西也過不了自己那關＞＜（寫小說時有這種情況）
“… this is more of an artistic stance, maybe, but, if I make something that I don’t really believe in, or believe it really came from me, like, if I’ve skipped the process, I guess, to me that’s fake music. But this is a very human artist perspective, so, which is why AI made music feels like it’s skipping an important part of it…”
“(Speaking of silence in music) … it is important what you take out. What you take out is as much or leave out, is I think actually even more important than what you put in.”
我其實比較喜歡聽宇多田說她的創作心路歷程而不是AI… :-D 喜歡她說創作也是一個reflection的過程
後面Harari說如果無心的AI和有心的人可以說出一樣的話，那怎麼可以證明AI（沒）有consciousness？ “So I just don’t see what kind of proof we could have that AI has consciousness. What I definitely can see is that even without proof, millions of people will be convinced that AI is conscious, that AIs has feelings and therefore we should recognize them as persons…” orz
“…and it will not be clear whether we are discovering this amazing new universe of consciousness or whether we are falling into the biggest delusion in human history.” 顯然是後者啦 :-D
笑死，之後宇多田也說不知道可以怎麼prove自己有consciousness (rofl) 然後Harari說 “…consciousness until now was a social convention. We, as a society, agree that all people are conscious, not because we have proof, but this is like we have relationships with them. And, it is usually relationships that convince people that conscioiusness is real.”
他又舉例，養狗的人和狗有深層連結，會覺得狗是充滿consciousness的；相反，我們吃牛不會想牛是不是conscious，因為我們從沒和牛互動。 “Now once we have very intense relationship with AIs, it will be almost impossible to resist the temptation to believe they are conscious…” (doh) 有人翻譯了概要： https://www.vivepostwave.com/yuval-noah-harari-hikaru-utada-the-evolution-of-ai-and-creativity/
//哈拉瑞指出，智能與意識是兩回事。AI雖然可以模擬悲傷、憤怒或愛的表現，但這不代表它真的「感覺」到那些情緒。他進一步補充，我們之所以相信他人有意識，往往不是因為有確切證據，而是出於「社會約定俗成的預設」。他預測未來當人們與AI建立深厚關係時，幾乎不可能抗拒相信AI也有意識的誘惑。
好，聽完了。Thank you very much 😊
